Tuesday 29 January 2013

LibDem President Fails to See Parallels with History

Are there any lessons to be gleaned from Nazi era pre-WWII Germany?

Tim Farron MP, President of the Liberal Democratic Party, is an open-minded sort. The following demonstrates that those in power really have no idea of the impact of their in/actions let alone of their utterances. Please do not attack Tim. He is one of the very few MPs I contact on a regular basis who bothers to reply and in fact, actually goes further, he tries to engage in debate.

The tweets are listed in chronological order from amongst different threads, so one can follow the wider conversation.

  1. @timfarron Read this for Holocaust Memorial Day & ponder why disabled folk in the UK feel so petrified! #wowpetitionandrewbradfordauthor.com/ap...
  2. @criquaer I'm have to say linking the two is incredibly unhelpful.
  3. @timfarron @criquaer Tim you and your Govt are incredibly unhelpful to us the electorate but increasingly helpful to corporate interests
  4. .@timfarron @criquaer Truth hurts. Have you heard ofblacktrianglecampaign.org/ Tim? Know why they're called Black Triangle? @blacktriangle1
  5. @timfarron @criquaer Only two groups of people have ever described disabled people as economically unsustainable - I'm sure you now see link
  6. @timfarron @criquaer have you actually compared the early 30's german propaganda to the current disability rhetoric? Its scarily close.
  7. @timfarron Thought had sent link before: crippledqueeranglo-european... Includes comments from @Rabbi_Debbie drawing same comparisons. #WoWpetition
  8. @timfarron "stomach turning … statements I hear from people and politicians every day." @Rabbi_Debbie #WoWpetition 1/2
  9. @timfarron "Maybe not put quite as frankly or bluntly as that but the underlining argument and sentiment is the same."@Rabbi_Debbie 2/2
  10. @criquaer have to say I agree with @timfarron - I know what you're getting at but holocaust comparison unacceptable and unhelpful.
  11. @danwaterfield @timfarron Have you seen my other tweets. Sorry you find unacceptable; but @Rabbi_Debbie has made comparison.@WoWpetition
  12. @timfarron @criquaer If you want proof of this give us a Cumulative Impact Assessment and ask coroners to collect stats.#wowpetition
  13. @edwinmandella @timfarron @criquaer wording used similar to that used 30's Germany when U say it is unhelpful u mean it pricks ur conscience
  14. @cjball_london @edwinmandella @criquaer No I don't mean that. Its unhelpful to your case to link the two.
  15. At no point in any of the threads, does Tim actually explain why he considers drawing parallels is "unhelpful".
  16. @edwinmandella @timfarron @criquaer Limp day in my not, so stylish, orthopaedic boots & see reaction I get, then tell me I'm wrong Tim
  17. @timfarron @cjball_london @criquaer I know you're wrong. a Cumulative Impact Assessment would prove it! #wowpetitionConDems are elitist!
  18. @timfarron @criquaer If you want proof of this give us a Cumulative Impact Assessment and ask coroners to collect stats.#wowpetition
  19. @cjball_london @edwinmandella @criquaer No I don't mean that. Its unhelpful to your case to link the two.
  20. @crazybladeuk @edwinmandella I don't agree there but that's a separate argument. The Nazi link is offensive and unhelpful to your cause.
  21. I am both queer & disabled, so one way or another I would have been for the chop. I cannot understand why Tim considers the link is "offensive". Again, he never actually explains why.
  22. @timfarron @crazybladeuk The Nazi link is justified. How many disabled people have harmed themselves due to YOUR policies?#wowpetition
  23. @edwinmandella @timfarron @crazybladeuk Thing is Tim in 1930's Germany before the killing was step 1 'the jews are to blame for the economy'
  24. Actually, Phillip is incorrect: the first to be sterilised, starved, experimented upon and slaughtered were disabled folk. It was the results of the T4 experiments that ultimately led to extermination camps.
  25. @timfarron @edwinmandella @criquaer the two are linked as they use similar subtext,language - the intent is the same - 2 devalue the target
  26. @Phillip_D_Jones @timfarron @crazybladeuk Thing is Tim why won't you give us a Cumulative Impact Assessment. Scared of what it will say??
  27. @timfarron @edwinmandella @criquaer to devalue the target in the eyes of 'the tax payer' - you may have to be the target to understand
  28. @Phillip_D_Jones @edwinmandella @crazybladeuk Please point me to one person who has said or close to this in the last two years?
  29. @cjball_london @edwinmandella @criquaer Can I honest advice. Drop the Nazi stuff. Seriously... It actually harms your argument.
  30. Tim does not define these "harms".
  31. @timfarron @edwinmandella @crazybladeuk "neighbour with curtains drawn as you go to work" this is code language for depressives and MI.
  32. @timfarron @edwinmandella @criquaer Tim - language being used is similar in tone and subtext to what was used in 30's - u want it shut up
  33. @timfarron @edwinmandella @criquaer I have been abused in the street and called a scrounger - where do u think it comes from?
  34. @crazybladeuk @edwinmandella And I'll tell you that it massively hurts your cause.
  35. @Phillip_D_Jones @edwinmandella @crazybladeuk And I'm record telling MP's from ALL parties that that rhetoric is wrong.
  36. @timfarron @edwinmandella Why Tim, because we're showing how shameful Govt rethoric is by making a comparison you don't like?
  37. @timfarron @edwinmandella @crazybladeuk and you were right to do so but you accept this is a valid example of what I was refering to?
  38. @timfarron @phillip_d_jones @crazybladeuk are you serious? Have you seen WOWpetition 16k+ sigs waiting 4 DWP response!Wowpetition.com
  39. @crazybladeuk @edwinmandella No because it offends moderate supporters like me and hurts your argument.
  40. @Phillip_D_Jones @edwinmandella @crazybladeuk Yes but linking to the Nazi's is very, very silly or very offensive.
  41. ? Not ironic, just patronising methinks!
  42. @timfarron @crazybladeuk look back in History people in Germany were saying its not so in the 30s. Why should we trust you? #tuitionfees
  43. @edwinmandella @phillip_d_jones @crazybladeuk Ian, I'd take that up with each MP. They are responsible for what they say.
  44. @timfarron @crazybladeuk @edwinmandella is it more offensive than actually being the target of it in the street Tim? we R facing the brunt
  45. @timfarron @edwinmandella @crazybladeuk not sure Tim. We must learn from history. I feel it is better to talk now in case it progresses.
  46. @timfarron @crazybladeuk @phillip_d_jones They HAVEN'T DONE a Cumulative Impact Assessment of the welfare changes. Check your facts, Tim,
  47. @timfarron @edwinmandella @crazybladeuk Tim I also dont think this is limited to the odd MP. The hate scrounger rehetoric is in the media.
  48. @Phillip_D_Jones @edwinmandella @crazybladeuk We should learn from history I agree but comparing the two hurts the case they are making
  49. @edwinmandella @timfarron @crazybladeuk I agree that he shouldn't be going into voting lobby with IDS, Shelbrooke, McVey - culpable there
  50. @timfarron @edwinmandella @crazybladeuk could millions have been saved in Germany by speaking out earlier? Just in case Im speaking out now.
  51. @timfarron @Phillip_D_Jones @edwinmandella @crazybladeukTim - shouldn't the targets be the one to say? R u denying how it makes us feel?
  52. @Phillip_D_Jones I'm not in control of the media. I can't tell them what to print. I hope my view is known.
  53. @edwinmandella @timfarron @Phillip_D_Jones That's absolutely right, and it's ridiculous that one hasn't been done.
  54. @timfarron @phillip_d_jones @crazybladeuk Have a read of this!newstatesman.com/voices/201... Also have you heard of the BlackTriangle campaign group
  55. @timfarron i dont mean this to be hurtful Tim but I have to say it. That is Pilots position in the crucifixation.
  56. @Phillip_D_Jones I don't think this rhetoric is helpful at all. Its really not.
  57. @timfarron @Phillip_D_Jones @edwinmandella @crazybladeukSorry thought it was clear. As the target of the attacks shouldn't we B the 1's>
  58. @Phillip_D_Jones So what do you want me to do then call the BBC and say please change ur script please?
  59. @cjball_london @Phillip_D_Jones @edwinmandella@crazybladeuk You can of course call it whatever you want. But do you think how it looks
  60. @timfarron @Phillip_D_Jones Tim - we R the target of it, we R the 1's who R being devalued by it. It is up 2 us if we see a connection
  61. @cjball_london @Phillip_D_Jones Fine. I've told you my honest assessment. I was trying to be helpful.
  62. @timfarron @Phillip_D_Jones @edwinmandella @crazybladeuk I don't think u r getting it Tim - ur not like others granted but ur missing this 1
  63. @timfarron @cjball_london @Phillip_D_Jones @edwinmandellaTim do you think we want to make the comparison? Do you realise how scared we are?
  64. @timfarron @Phillip_D_Jones @edwinmandella @crazybladeuk I have said many times - how it feels 2B abused in street due to this?
  65. @timfarron @crazybladeuk @cjball_london @phillip_d_jonesthey don't care. We need equality of opportunity not just treatment!
  66. @timfarron @cjball_london @Phillip_D_Jones @edwinmandellaBut Tim - Your Party has ALLOWED this to happen. Disabled ppl bearing the brunt...
  67. @edwinmandella @crazybladeuk @cjball_london@phillip_d_jones Please do say I don't care. I'm happy to discuss any issue. No need for it.
  68. @timfarron @crazybladeuk @cjball_london @phillip_d_jones My MP, Theresa May just gives me the fairness rhetoric when I talk to her.
  69. @timfarron @crazybladeuk @cjball_london @phillip_d_jonesWhen i complained about IDS hate speech she wrote back,disagreed and did nothing!
  70. @timfarron @edwinmandella @cjball_london @Phillip_D_JonesOk. Tim Farron, as President of the Liberal Democrats, I hereby request that...
  71. @crazybladeuk @edwinmandella @cjball_london@Phillip_D_Jones But with policy issues you have to go through ur MP. There is a protocol.
  72. @crazybladeuk @timfarron @edwinmandella @Phillip_D_Jonesit is against the law 4 Tim 2 on constituency basis but Libdems as a body could
  73. @cjball_london @timfarron @edwinmandella I have stopped going out in my mobility scooter unless absolutely necessary because of the abuse.
  74. Can understand now why I didn't get a response, as Tim busy elsewhere!
  75. @crazybladeuk @timfarron @edwinmandella @Phillip_D_Jonesnow that would work - come on Tim - we know ur heart isn't with IDS etc
  76. @timfarron @edwinmandella @crazybladeuk @Phillip_D_Jonesand who helped vote that thru? Oh yes;-) seriously - Min Tory Gov wud fall soon
  77. @timfarron @edwinmandella @crazybladeuk @Phillip_D_Jones if LibDems pulled out coalition Tories wud have hard time & U wouldn't b assoc with
  78. @crazybladeuk @timfarron @edwinmandella @Phillip_D_Jones I have to agree Wayne - but I would go further, I am actually terrified of this Gov
  79. @crazybladeuk @timfarron @edwinmandella @Phillip_D_JonesIt is an awful thing to have to feel in what is purported 2B a democracy isn't it
  80. @timfarron @edwinmandella @crazybladeuk @Phillip_D_JonesCoalition agreement 3 core values "Freedom, fairness & responsibility" failed all 3
  81. @timfarron @cjball_london @edwinmandella So if our comparison to Nazi pre-war era is offensive, is @Rabbi_Debbie's exact same cf also so?
  82. @cjball_london @timfarron @edwinmandella @Phillip_D_JonesLet me change tact a little: Tim are you aware of the cumulative impact from Apr?
  83. @criquaer @cjball_london @edwinmandella @Rabbi_Debbie I'm sorry I've not heard her comments so I can't really comment. Have to bath my
  84. @timfarron @cjball_london @edwinmandella @Rabbi_DebbieThe comments were included in my blog-post, sent to you earlier & link just sent.
  85. @crazybladeuk Tim is a gen nice guy but he is naive to think his party are not part of the problem & cause 4 such things
  86. "@timfarron Thought had sent link before: crippledqueeranglo-european...… … Includes comments from @Rabbi_Debbie drawing same comparisons." sent c.8h
  87. "@timfarron "stomach turning … statements I hear from people and politicians every day." @Rabbi_Debbie #WoWpetition 1/2" sent approx 8h ago
  88. "@timfarron Maybe not put quite as frankly or bluntly as that but the underlining argument and sentiment is the same.@Rabbi_Debbie 2/2" 8h
  89. @criquaer @Rabbi_Debbie I'm sorry I missed it Colin - I'm sure you understand I get a lot of tweets and I can on occasion miss a couple.
  90. @timfarron @Rabbi_Debbie Wasn't a dig, Tim. Assumed you v. busy, so tracked them down for ease of ref. Hope kiddies enjoyed their bathe. %)
  91. @timfarron @blacktriangle1 @RevPaulCA @criquaer Tim that is how many disabled people feel. Accept it and then work to understand it.
  92. The conversation continued with other players. I have not followed it. However, I cite below two examples, which the reader can pursue.
  93. @deletedbyMPs @blacktriangle1 @criquaer @timfarron I compared 2 govts who demonised the sick/disabled to save money, how is that wrong?
  94. @Phillip_D_Jones @timfarron @blacktriangle1 @criquaer Had an early night, missed the afters, btw Tim it's rude to delete and you get caught

I originally posted this on storify: http://storify.com/criquaer50/libdem-president-fails-to-see-parallels-with-histo

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